Blender Practice

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Blender Practice

Lord_PorkSword · Connoisseur of Bourbon!

Good ta see ya trying ya hand at Blender M8!
That lantern looks pretty good!

Bl!tz · ...ǝp¡s ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ uo

yeah the lantern is nice, exactly the kind of lantern u d like to see balancing with a chain, gj

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

@LPS

If I get any better I'll start taking requests ;)

@Bl!tz

Hey yeah, might have to make a wall attachment for it. Cheers.

-- Edited by Achernar on Tuesday 5th of April 2011 04:27:49 PM

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Hey there Achernar, glad to see you working on Blender. I have been messing around with it a little bit (building the tutorial page too). When 2.57 gets released (should be soon as they just started releasing RC version), I will then start to really learn it and such.

That being said, that lantern looks good man. UV mapping is still more work than it should be, but there are tricks to learn (as with all things).

Keep in mind that I am here to bounce ideas off of, ask for advice, be given advice, etc. "We" (Blender/UT3 users) need to help each other out to get better at it. smile

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Yeah I'm looking out for the next release, I hope rich is board is too so we can have the .ase exporter available for it.

I really liked your FAQ. It answered some points I was a bit sketchy on so thx!

Thx for the complement. Its still rough, no smoothing applied and there are a few extra faces I need to delete but it works. Can you believe it took me four goes to before it remained in one piece inside UE3!

I got good refresh of all the short cuts after watching an mesh making tutorial on Blender cookie

http://www.blendercookie.com/2010/01/16/creating-an-axe-part-1/
http://www.blendercookie.com/2010/01/21/creating-an-axe-part-2/

Cheers, I'm glad I can talk about my progress with ya and share ideas.

If any one was interesed here's the dodge ramp

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

In that one thread you posted at the Epic forums regarding the psk exporter, I believe one of the guys working on it may (I say this until I see it) a proper .ase exporter that does the "normal stuff". From what I guess at, that should include (no requiring you to UV map an object (for collision boxes), multiple materials, multiple uvs. and the smoothing you mentioned).

On that topic, how exactly do you apply this "smoothing" so it would be recognized in the editor (with a proper .exporter)? Is it marking the edges a certain style or something else. I never could figure this out properly in 2.49.

Did you make the mesh 4 different times or 4 different imports? What issues did you have.

I think I have casually watched that video you posted. Johnathan Williamson is a good teacher.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

That would be great news about the exporter - we can just hope and in the least provide encouragement.

Hmm smoothing. At first I was deceived thinking that the smoothing button (in edit mode) would do it - but that's just for light calculations. So still a little unsure but I think you can use the sub surface modifier to add extra faces to the whole object. But its not very precise. So not to my knowledge other that manually using loop cuts and sub division tools. I was reading about a auto smooth tool that was available in prior versions can cant see a reference to it in 2.5. But in the end optimising your mesh for in game use is a manual process anyway.

I had to make the mesh 4x but my big problems was importing it with all the faces still there. In blender it looked fine. I think this was partly due to over use of remove doubles (vertices) function and not selecting all 4 verts when manually creating a face (F). So in the end I just make the mesh out of three separate objects that I had joined together. I know its not optimal, but with a few faces removed and maybe an extra vert here and there it works just fine. Still got the training wheels on I'm afraid...

I definitely agree that guy does an excellent job!

-- Edited by Achernar on Tuesday 19th of April 2011 09:04:46 AM

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Regarding smoothing: Here is the original tutorial I tried to learn. I don't know if it was me or the exporter or what, but I don't seem to remember getting it working.

You have to practice and learn. Ideally, your mesh should be continous from itself. But there are ways to add faces/edges and vertices by themselves. I know meshes don't have to be closed (they do if you want them to occlude properly), but I don't know how it effects rendering if you keep it open.

For example, in my Blender thread in the map pack 2 section, my last model has some faces deleted (on the bottom and back of the sign). I did this as it would reduce the number of polygons and make uv mapping easier to learn.

Once 2.57 is officially released, I will be doing some testing with the current exporters (.ase and fbx) to see what can be done with them. I did a test yesterday with rc 2 and the fbx exporter and it was able to assign multiple materials to it, which the current .ase file can't. hmm

If there is a way to get models from UDK to UT 3, with out loosing any information, then I wouldn't even mind that work flow. Time will tell.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Probably the exporter - I'd say.

Too true. Reading tutorials will only take you so far. I agree about meshes should be continuous - something i'll work on my next one. I'm not sure how it affects rendering either. Might have to set an experiment to figure that out - one day. My suspicion would be that if the open face is blocked by another mesh or bsp the engine wont render it.

Wow thats an amazing observation about the rc2 version - so your using the 2.56 exporter ?

Hmm not sure if exporting out of UDK. But that would be awesome if it could. Hopefully when things settle down with all the new changes that a decent exporter will be created.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I tried to install the "rich is bored" exporter, but I believe that was lastly built under 2.54? I tried to add the script, but it wouldn't accept it (unless I did something wrong).

I tested exporting out of UDK, but didn't find anything useful.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

I think there's a 2.56 exporter but I couldn't get it to work with 2.56a Blender so I reverted to the one you mention.

I got the same result some months ago in UDK. I don't expect this situation to change. Pity.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Blender 2.57 was officially released yesterday. I have it installed, but haven't had time to tweak it and see how it works with the exporter scripts.

Bl!tz · ...ǝp¡s ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ uo

Odedge wrote:
Blender 2.57 was officially released yesterday. I have it installed, but haven't had time to tweak it and see how it works with the exporter scripts.

euh...it s free? cant imagine a gimp freak pointing something else

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Thanks for the heads up Jeff!

I hear this is the second last one in the 2.5 series before the 2.6 work starts (for what its worth).

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I heard they may release 2.58 in June, which seems a bit quick? I did some testing with the FBX exporter and so far it seems to be working just fine for the big stuff (multiple materials, collision models and multiple UVs). As far as I can tell, the existing .ase exporter doesn't work at all (didn't show up in the export menu). I will be messing around with it until there is a decent .ase exprter.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Good news...

MCampagnini from the Epic/UDK forum updated Rich's ASE script to offer better exporting support. It works with 2.57 (which is a good start) and offers most of the needed stuff to work (except for multiple UVs, which should be added later).

You can check out my Blender To Unreal Exporting page for more info. biggrin

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Yeah I guess so about the timeline. I read one report that the point release will follow in 2 months intervals form then on. I don't really now the underlying details of the work involved, perhaps the new api has attracted more contributors seeding faster development.

I was wondering how that pipe line out of UDK to UT3 works? In case the exporter is broken in following releases. As an aside I read an old post on UDK forums about an alternative free modeling program called True space. It has an .ase exporter and the interface seems polished, can't speak about texturing yet, but it has some nice video tutorials available.

That's fantastic news about the exporter! I'm loosing my reservations about blender more and more now.

Very nice break down on your site.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I tried seeing if I could get static meshes from UDK to UT 3, but it won't work well enough. In my testing (if memory serves me well), you can't really export a mesh from the content browser into a useable format. You can export a mesh that it's your map as an .obj file, but when you get that into Blender, it's in many pieces (each face seems to be a separate piece).

The good thing is that at least you can convert brushes to a static mesh, export as an .obj file, then import into Blender to be used as a reference to making static meshes. This is good for fitting smaller meshes to your BSP.

I am a big fan of what Blender is trying to do (haven't checked out True Space). I have invested a lot of time learning both versions (2.49 + 2.5z). With 2.57, I feel the program makes "sense" (with the layout) and work flow.

Now that the exporter is being worked on and hopefully completed to it's full capacity, I really have no more reservations about Blender and ultimately, no more excuses!

Thanks for posting in MCampagnini's thread. smile

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

The following picture is more to practice the work flow/pipeline more than modeling techniques.

The mesh on the left is a bit more complex than the picture shows. The one on the right is extremely simple (with open faces where they connect). Each has 3 materials applied to them.

While having 3 materials isn't ideal, it may be needed for some meshes. The current ASE exporter now supports multiple materials (as stated before), but the specifics have changed a bit.

Also, when I was UV mapping the meshes, the textures weren't showing correctly in Blender. I finally figure out how to properly display multiple textures on 1 mesh. This way, I have a better idea how they will look once they get into the editor.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

That's a pity about the routing your meshes through UDK. So I'm very glad there is a prospect of a real alternative with the new exporter. I'd rather just learn the one package and am staying with Blender. The ASE exporter is what attracted my attention about TrueSpace. Definitely no excuses with Blender now!

I'll have to look into what objectives the Blender project is focusing on. I wonder if another wish could be fulfilled with better UV/texturing support.

No probs about the post - only natural really.

Nice work on those meshes. So are you planing another futuristic map? They seem to have inherited many Tron traits.

I'm still trying to figure out how to view textured meshes inside of Blender or displaying textures as background images to aid in modelling. So your a little ahead of me atm. But I'm encouraged by your progress so I started making U logo medallion, should have some progress to show soon...

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I hope the Blender foundation does improve the UVing aspect of the work flow as that seems to be the most time consuming/frustrating. I wish they had tools similar to the editor, where you can apply textures to a BSP and convert it to a Mesh and the editor UV maps it for you.

In addition, having the ability to see how long each edge and resize them in the UV editor would be nice as well.

Since I am practicing the work flow more than anything else, I don't want to spend too much time creating new materials. I would like to do another Tronish map with more curved surfaces, but that's not a priority right now.

If you need help, let me know. It's very important to be able to see the model textured properly in Blender before you export it. That's what I "learned" last night. It's also possible to import an image as your background to aid in modeling. There is also an add-on to import a texture onto a mesh plane. This way you can toggle it off and on, when needed.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

What you loose simplicity of texturing you get back in complexity of modelling. It would become a mainstream tool if they could make it that simple in Blender! I defiantly agree about measuring, resizing and scaling. Kinda need the grid to be as easily re-sized as in UT3 too, so using snapping would make more sense more of the time. But I wonder if my UT3 prejudices are stopping me learning how Blender does it.

No worries just trying to 'interpret' the meshes your creating. I think you've got a good approach trying simple stuff first. I'm jumping ahead to try and make complex shapes but find creating UV layouts that can be easily textured a nightmare.

Thanks for offer. I have a few more things to try so hopefully I can figure it out too. Well done working that part out, I'm impressed. I found that add on - its just what I needed, sure make modelling a lot easier now.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

It's interesting to go back and forth between the 2 programs (Blender and the editor). It's natural to try and make them as similar was possible, which is what I am trying to do.

I want to make my meshes in Blender, the size they will be in the game. I don't like scaling as you have to do too much match. Setting up the grid in Blender is important to make things go easier.

Since you can't "resize" the grid spacing like you can in the editor, I just set the Scale to 64 and the subdivisions to 8 (which is the same as the editor). With a scale of 64, it will NOT show a grid that's smaller than 1x1, which is important size the sizing of the grid is never displayed. In addition, I don't need anything that small to be snapped to the grid.

The grid system in Blender will automatically "resize" itself based on your zoom level. With the above settings, 1x1 will turn into 8x8 which will turn into 64x64 and so on. I don't plan on modeling anything so big that I would need to see a grid size bigger than 64x64.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I was playing Under 2 the other day and noticed the flooring and tried to make a basic version of it.

It's a 64x64 tile that's repeated over and over in a 1024x1024 mesh. I applied a stock material, which actually divides it up a bit more visually.

You can also create normal maps and this is a normal map created from the same mesh.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Perhaps I'm just naively hoping that Blender has an efficient way to do things that my UT3 thinking is preventing me from learning. But as I'm not learning it from the ground up it may take longer to learn Blender's language...

Sounds like you've got a nice schema going there. Another thing about scaling it to try and make your meshes in the precise uu so their all consistent. Say making stairs and trimming, walkways etc all 256 or 384uu wide. I notice most UT3 meshes seem to adhere to this convention. At the moment I don't know how to bring up a box to enter numerical data for scaling as opposed to free hand. Do you use snapping for this?

I like the floor tiles. So how did you get a normal map out of Blender?

-- Edited by Achernar on Monday 16th of May 2011 03:14:16 AM

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Blender will allow you more creativity at the cost of more time as you need to create the models and possibly textures. For me, it's worth it as I seem to get a bit more stuck on how to use the stock models.

I am a big believer of modular mapping and do stick to the grid a lot. MCampagnini told us how to adjust the default scale value, which is a nice thing to change. I tend to stick to a larger scale when creating the floor plan (64 units being the smallest grid).

As for Blender, the scaling doesn't seem to work the same as it does with the editor. That's why I just set the scale value to 64, so it works closest to the editor and good enough for what I will be making.

For most thing, I plan on using the snapping tool and snapping it to the grid. If I do some landscape/rocks/etc, I won't bother to much with it.

For the normal map, I just followed this tutorial on baking normal maps.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Apologies for the delay in replying - Bender has been causing me some troubles which I've sorted only to stumble on some more.

I agree although sometime it turns my hair grey, there are still many benefits to have.

It's good that the exporter allows you to change the scale at export time too.

That's a good tip about the scaling - I'lll use that one :)

Thanks for the normal map tutorial.

I'm having trouble sorting out how to export multiple UV using the new exporter. I can get 2 material slots just fine though - the reverse of the problem reported on the forum and in his instructional. I wondering if you can tell me how you figured out how to do it. I followed his method as close as I can but no luck. The other differences I observed are if I remove material and uv slots on the ucx_collider mesh I can't export the mesh - no error message either. As well the options to modify smoothing groups are not present at export time - but then again I don't know how to set that up to begin with. Any ideas?

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Huh. Umm, do you have the latest version of the exporter 1.0.5? I am also using the latest Blender version 2.57b. You might be using an outdated version of the exporter, which he has changed.

I think this combination causes a "bug" in which you need to include a collision mesh, but it can be a simple one, which can always be "erased" or overriden in the static mesh editor.

My Blender to Unreal page has the most updated info, which should help

I can possibly give you a few tips on the UV part.

After creatinging the model (before UV mapping it), go to the properties window (bottom right area of the default layout), then the "ObjectData" (looks like an upside down triangle).
Expand the UV Textures section below and click the "+" button twice to create 2 UV maps.
I would name the first one "UV1Tex", for your textures, the second one "UV2LightMap", for your light map. This should put these in order so when you go to do your UV map layout, the first one will be selected.
When you are setting up your UV map, make sure the proper UV map is selected (should be on the right of the UV toolbar).

As for the other stuff...

After you select the option to export, a "save to" window will appear, where you select where and what name to use. On the very bottom left of the window, you will find a few options.
"Convert to: to Tris" section allows you to choose if you want to convert the file before exporting. Keep in mind it will change your original mesh.
Scale: Here is where you can enter the scaling value. Keep in mind you can change the default value (which I did).
Angle Limit: This is where you set which faces should be set to smooth shading. To the best of my understanding, if two faces have an angle that is lower than this value, it will set that edge to smooth shading.
"Force Compression" If checked, it will try to create the fewest number of smooth groups, which are first created by the "angle limit".

If you need more info, just let me know and I will create a proper tutorial, which I have thought about doing. smile

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Ok so I went back to basics and downloaded the latest versions and to my surprise I realised that I was using an older version of the exporter - I guess the no smoothing groups option should have triggered more of a reaction in me. confuse So I went though the steps I had rehearsed so many times and now it works! I feel pretty silly. But I guess as the exporter file has the exact same name, its a little more obscure to tell - nonsense reasons aside I should have realised.

Many thanks for your tips. The only thing outside my awareness was the light map pack option under multiple UV's.

Needless to say I very relieved, now I can get on with thinking about modeling and texturing. Phew!

I think your information provides a good overview. The video is pretty clear to my eyes the only benefit of writing a tuto would be to have a method that is searchable.

Thanks again for you help Odedge, much appreciated!

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Glad you are up to speed. Sometimes I wish he would have the version in the file name, but such is life. You can see what version is installed in the add-ons section of the user preferences.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Some progress now that I can export things properly...

In scene

Its still has a few rough edges but it uses light mapping finally. Might need to redo the texturing to give it more of a metalic sceen.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Looking good, especially in the game. How many tris are in each of them?

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Its just the one mesh only used a bit differently ;)

Total tris: 575

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Ok now that those silly problems were fixed I could focus on something productive. So I put my mind to making a Whisky barrel biggrin . The mesh is nothing very complex just a cylinder with some loop cuts and a few subdivisions. Texturing was the sticky part. My first thought was to try and use texture projection to paint the UV map on, but I kept stumbling coz my reference image does not have a perfectly symetrical profile. This resulted in distorted wood planks and metal rims as I tried to align the UV's.

So I went back to basics and created the barrel from some wood floor texture and the croped metal rims from my original reference image. Using muliple layers in Gimp I managed to piece the rest together. I'm always impressed how far The Gimp can take me and I reckon it runs faster than PS.

Some progress:

Side view

Top View

UV map with normals and specular

Mesh properties: 720 Tris and 609 Verts.

Thx again Odedge! Your help was just enough to push me in the right direction, its much apprecated wink

-- Edited by Achernar on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 04:57:13 PM

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Nice work. I am glad that you posted the texture as well, as it's nice to see how the texture is laid out.

Bl!tz · ...ǝp¡s ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ uo

wow, looks very pro mate,gj

Lord_PorkSword · Connoisseur of Bourbon!

+1!
Very nice work M8!

I like how you've got a lip on the barrel, rather than take the easy approach by just making it flat!

-- Edited by Lord_PorkSword on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 11:41:32 PM

Bl!tz · ...ǝp¡s ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ uo

Lord_PorkSword wrote:
I like how you've got a lip on the barrel, rather than take the easy approach by just making it flat!

lol...and if u run around it become an or**** l lip on a barrel

-- Edited by Bl!tz on Monday 23rd of May 2011 01:11:08 AM

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Odedge wrote:
Nice work. I am glad that you posted the texture as well, as it's nice to see how the texture is laid out.

Thx Yeah, thats the most optimal use of texture space I could come up with, also makes the edges seamless too.

Bl!tz wrote:
wow, looks very pro mate,gj

Hey thx Bl!tz. If I keep the ball rolling and make enough I may release them as a pack.

Lord_PorkSword wrote:
+1!
Very nice work M8!
I like how you've got a lip on the barrel, rather than take the easy approach by just making it flat!

Cheers buddy. My first attempt skipped this part so I'm happy someone noticed.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

Ok so I found this interesting program that generates realistic looking Ivy on your meshes. It's called Ivy Generator. All you have to do is make import your .obj files into this app, play with the settings (there's a video tutorial on the site) and see what you can make.

It can produce some interesting results. However there's a big gotcha as the resulting meshes are massive easily surpassing 1x10^6 verts. So I almost gave up after realising this, but then I had a look at the envy decals package and found that simple plain with the Ivy decal on it so I thought I'd have a go at making one of those. So I imported my mesh into Blender following this tutorial on texturing it.

Hear are my results (Nothing too exciting) merely a proof of concept.

Please note the rendered textures take about 20 min to bake each as the meshes are so complex.

So I removed all the blue in Gimp and put the colour to alpha for importing into the engine.

In Engine: Front

Top

Materials include normal maps.

I know it doesn't look too impressive but I thought it has potential and is worth a mention.

-- Edited by Achernar on Friday 27th of May 2011 04:12:27 AM

Lord_PorkSword · Connoisseur of Bourbon!

With darker lighting in ya test level it'd look quite nice I reckon!

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

Cool Achernar,

I have seen that Ivy Generator, but didn't think that it could work in the editor. I presume most of the ivy in the game is basically some sheets with a texture applied to it?

Thanks for sharing.

Bl!tz · ...ǝp¡s ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ uo

ahhhhh....finally a serious candidate to replace thoses uggly flat stock foliage mesh :p GJ m8

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

@Lord PorkSword

Hmm, yeah I guess it would look better in the dark.

@Odedge

Yeah that's the best use I could think of. The other alternative would have to involve using some sort of mesh optimiser - polycruncher or meshlab to simplify it.

Might have some utility for making background foliage plains though.

@Bl!tz
A potential replacement. I don't think this one could pass Quality Assurance. The ones that ship with titan pack aren't too bad. Found in \UT3G\Packages\KRS_Foliage.

Lord_PorkSword · Connoisseur of Bourbon!

I never even thought to look in the Titan packages for extra content....doh!

That coulda come in handy for Amytis...

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

MCampagnini has released the newest version of his script, which I am looking at now. I know he fixed the need for a collision model if you wanted 2 materials and 2 UVs. I haven't yet checked out the smoothing group section.

Achernar · Amateur UT mapper

That great news thanks for telling. I'm not sure one could ask for much more in an exporter.

Odedge · Feedback-Master ..

I guess it's my turn to show some stuff... smile

I have decided to learn Blender by finishing my Temple map. I am going to use stock materials, which have created a small challenge extracting them from the editor.

I have the 3D Ripper DX program, but it seams to crash fairly quickly on my current machine. I think it's an issue with either Vista/Windows 7. If I remember correctly, it worked very well in XP.

Here is my current progress. I am going for fairly simple meshes, buecause frankly, these can be challenging with my current knowledge. biggrin

My biggest challenge, at this time, is to learn how to scale the textures correctly accross multiple meshes. Being a "technical" person, I like the simple BSP alignment tools in the editor. Unforauntely, I don't think Blender has the same capabilities (at least at this time).

Since I am creating multiple meshes using the same materials, I finally created a "Materials.blend" file with a simple plane for each material This way, I can link each material in my other blend files and won't have to recereate them. If I change the master file, all of the other linked materials get updated!

This is the top of the little room. Even though it looks fairly simple, it was a challenge to UV map because of the extra faces that need to be created in order to extrue the smaller section 9with the wood textures on them).

Simple column for the corners and there is another similar one for the door frame.

This was a little challenging as well. It was a bit difficutl to get each step properly scalled to each other and then the texture.

A simple wall, I know. I actually made a smaller one and hopefully I got the scaling right for the textures.

Here are the meshes in the game (but you can't see the stairs). Some of the textures may be changed and or scaled differently.

Lord_PorkSword · Connoisseur of Bourbon!

Looking very nice M8!