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Unreal Old Friends -> Installation -> Stuttering in UT2004 with Windows XP 32 Bit and new NVIDIA grafics cards
Post Info TOPIC: Stuttering in UT2004 with Windows XP 32 Bit and new NVIDIA grafics cards
rulaman


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Stuttering in UT2004 with Windows XP 32 Bit and new NVIDIA grafics cards
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I post this here, because it took a long time for me to solve this issue.

Note: This issue should not exist in Vista 64 Bit systems, I have this only if I use my old XP Pro 32 Bit.

With newer NVIDIA grafics cards (e.g. GTX285) you might notice that UT2004 feels very laggy or "stuttering", although your fps show "85".

In Vista Business 64 Bit for example the game shows fps 90, and it runs absolutely smooth.

I don't know why XP 32 shows 85 and Vista 64 shows 90 fps... evileye

As far as I found out, the stuttering issue has something to do with the default refresh rate of LCD Monitors of "60".

Every framerate rate with a value of (60 + X*30) should run smooth. If the value has a too big difference to that, than the stuttering will appear. I have noticed this in other games too, it's always the same.

There are two possibilities to solve this problem:

1. use Vsync, but then you will also have the problem with a very annoying mouselag.

2. This is the way I found out:

Make following changes in your UT2004 config files:

UT2004.ini:

MaxInternetClientRate=20000
MaxClientFrameRate=120.000000

User.ini:

N=netspeed 20000

The problem is that the game does by default not allow to use the above given MaxClientFrameRate=120
But if you change the netspeed to 20000, then this value will work.

Unfortunately I found no way to let a netspeed=20000 value stay in game or start the game with this value.
Therefore I have bound this netspeed command to the key "N".

If you press "N" then in game, your fps will get a boost to about ~115. I don't know why you don't get 120..., but that's no problem. The difference between 115 and 120 is not too big, and the game runs absolutely smooth now for me.aww

The only annoying thing is that the game loses the netspeed=20000 with the next map loaded in game. You have to press "N" every map-start again... bleh




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Bl!tz


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"n" !"n"! "n"! "n"!.........ROFL ;)

excellent tip mate , any idea what happen on vista32 ?



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rulaman


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Bl!tz wrote:

 

excellent tip mate , any idea what happen on vista32 ?



Sorry, no. I only have XP 32 and Vista 64.
But if any Vista 32 user wants to try it out... nothing gets damaged by setting these 2 values and that one keybind... headbang.gif

 



-- Edited by rulaman on Thursday 17th of September 2009 01:12:36 PM

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Bl!tz


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i have it on my wifes lappy but the gfx is megacrap....will try though ; just for the fun...cant be worst :the comput is in pain to run ut2004 ...if i can grab some fps lol^^..yeah yeah ...in my dreamz :p

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Scythe


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I am using Vsync, but I never expected mouse lag.

-- Edited by Scythe on Thursday 17th of September 2009 04:41:03 PM

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rulaman


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Scythe wrote:

I am using Vsync, but I never expected mouse lag.

-- Edited by Scythe on Thursday 17th of September 2009 04:41:03 PM



Yes, this was my first solution and I used it until I updated GForce drivers from 185.85 to 186.xx. Since the new driver I have much mouselag, although I did everything I know about driver settings to reduce it. no

 



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Scythe


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Oh yes, I'm using ATi

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rulaman


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This is exactly the problem with NVIDIA grafics cards: The new drivers provide no good support for "older" games. A few years ago there also was a known stuttering bug with my at that time GTS 8800 grafic card. This was one of the reasons why I stopped playing UT2004 then. We had a huge thread about this very annoying issue in the NVIDIA forums. The drivers had a problem with dynamic lighting in all games based on Unreal-Engine. Only a very few people with a different version of the 8800 chip were able to play those games without stuttering.

NVIDIA needed more than 2 years (!!!) to fix this issue.  And the compatibility to older games still sucks! If I for example would like to play "Ravenshield" without using Vsync, then I would have to underclock (rofl) my GTX285 about 95% ... bleh

-- Edited by rulaman on Friday 18th of September 2009 09:38:32 AM

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Bl!tz


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my sis had to undercloock her 9800gtx for same kind of reasons

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Scythe


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I've never heard that the compatiblity between older games and NVIDIA video cards is so bad. thanks for writing it here smile.gif you helped me a lot.

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rulaman


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Bl!tz wrote:

my sis had to undercloock her 9800gtx for same kind of reasons


Muahaha, after 4 years underclocking and/or vsyncing Ravenshield, I found this morning this entry in my Ravenshield.ini:

ReduceMouseLag=False


I changed it to:


ReduceMouseLag=True


...and: I can play the game without underclocking or Vsync now. confuse


Maybe some similar setting can be found in other games based on the Unreal-Engine too...wink


-- Edited by rulaman on Saturday 19th of September 2009 04:03:44 PM

-- Edited by rulaman on Saturday 19th of September 2009 04:05:16 PM

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Scythe


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really? you haven't got any shuttering now ?
btw I have turned ReduceMouseLag on too smile.gif

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Be blue or red... anyway, you're dead. biggrin
rulaman


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Scythe wrote:

really? you haven't got any shuttering now ?
btw I have turned ReduceMouseLag on too smile.gif



This only works in Ravenshield (based on the first Unreal-Engine), it doesn't help with the stuttering issue in UT2004.

It's also a complete different problem in Ravenshield: The new grafics cards are absolutely overpowered for this game. I have in some places about 1000 or more fps, lol. If you move your mouse, it feels like being drunk and you are unable to aim at anything.

Ravenshield also does not have this mouselag option in its gamesettings menu, you have to search for it in the inis... That's why I never found this solution in this game.evileye

 



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Scythe


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UT2004: have you tried this: Vsync=true and ReduceMouseLag=true ?

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lol good hunt ...thx for info; i was close to do it too ...haha:)

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rulaman


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Scythe wrote:

UT2004: have you tried this: Vsync=true and ReduceMouseLag=true ?



Yes, there still remains enough mouselag to make moving feel like you were moving the mouse in a pot of blancmange...bleh

 

And before someone asks: Yessss, I have set prerenderlimit to "0" and triple buffering to "yes". no

The only way to play UT2004 with my GTX285 and 186.18 drivers is like I wrote above.

I don't know if later drivers give better compatibility to older games than this one, but since I always have some new (different) trouble when I update my drivers, I will better stay at this one. yawn



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Bl!tz


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thats sure ;as far as u get something working ....it s better to keep it alive and far from updates...especially with nvidia fraqn drivers...the only way i was abble to play ut3 with my sli of 8800GT/oc was to use the stock driver from MSI ...and it was only a "beta" driver for nvidia (and no whql !)...i had to wait 1.5 years to find an updated driver that was runing ut3 with no major driver bugs...(190.38) and what is funny is that i actually still using this one on my sli of 9800GTX....did u try it rulaman?



for the info here s thoses that was crashing my ut3:
178.20----  <---ok for 8800GT/oc ;MSI stock one; but before VSync options(no vsync)
181.20----
182.05whql
182.06whql
185.85whql
186.18whql
190.38whql<---ok for 8800gt/oc & 9800gtx/oc



UT3+Nvidia gfx+vista=long hours happiness hunting the right drivers and settings...

.....rofl it seem they have something for UT2k4+Nvidia gfx+vista too ;)




-- Edited by Bl!tz on Sunday 20th of September 2009 03:36:56 PM

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rulaman


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Bl!tz wrote:

did u try it rulaman?



No..., the 186.18 is the best driver (on my XP 32 and on my Vista 64 too) I had the last months. I think I only had 1 nv4_disp.dll related BSOD the last 2 months. This is miles better than what I had with all drivers before. And meantime I have adapted all driver settings for best to work with it each game. So I'll take care not to touch this now, lol. pray.gif

Only Bioshock sometimes shows a bit stuttering. But the strange thing is that Bioshock starts stuttering on different places in Vista and XP. Lol, sometimes while playing I think about starting the other system, only to play one level. The next level it might be the opposite, and I would have to change the system again., haha. Very strange.

But I noticed that there is a really big difference in which monitor you use. Since I have upgrated from my Samsung 22'' to the ASUS 26'' , I notice these stuttering things much more than I did before.

First I thought that it has something to do with the resolution (1680x1050 --> 1920x1200), but the stuttering still remains if I use 1680x1050 on my 26''...evileye


By the way: I am playing UT3 at 1680x1050 although the monitor would support 1920x1200, just because I have the strange feeling that you have to aim more "exactly" with 1920x1200, but maybe this is just an illusion...

The other thing I have noticed is, that the NVIDIA drivers stability is also much related to the graphics card. A driver that crashed my 8800 GTS very frequent, worked quite good with my GTX285... blankstare



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Bl!tz


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rulaman wrote:

 


 

But I noticed that there is a really big difference in which monitor you use. Since I have upgrated from my Samsung 22'' to the ASUS 26'' , I notice these stuttering things much more than I did before.

First I thought that it has something to do with the resolution (1680x1050 --> 1920x1200), but the stuttering still remains if I use 1680x1050 on my 26''...evileye


By the way: I am playing UT3 at 1680x1050 although the monitor would support 1920x1200, just because I have the strange feeling that you have to aim more "exactly" with 1920x1200, but maybe this is just an illusion...


dont u think that it s better to use the "native resolution"?:

1680x1050 for a 22" & 1920x1200 for a 26" ? i heared that using native res was always giving best results than a different one; the computer doesnt have to switch between settings from "usual" res to the games one(the one u use on yer dekstop and the games one...it often bug between res when u jump in windows with alt enter for example)

and for the more accurate feeling on low res i totally agree with ya...i cant really explain it but when i changed from 19" to 22" i have loose a lot of accuracy and even now when i play on 2nd pc with 19" i always feel more comfortable to aim...exept on huge maps....highest res= more details= opponents more easy to see....but not to aim lol

btw 26" is big one and it should push ur gfx in pain sometimes using high res.....pain in hard res or pain with conflicts between native /gaming resolutions...nice options u have here...but perhaps i m completly wrong ;dunno exactly how powafull is a gtx285 ....though 1024mo should be enough haha^^

i bet the hitbox have something to do with that ...and it just give the feeling that the tagets are smaller on bigest screens.....and i dont talk bout the monster armmooves that u nees to do to get yer crosshair crossing the screen from one side to other

finally that s cool because it dont disavantage too much peeps who use smaller screens....better vision for some and better aiming for others...:)

-- Edited by Bl!tz on Sunday 20th of September 2009 05:48:22 PM

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rulaman


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Bl!tz wrote:

dont u think that it s better to use the "native resolution"?:

1680x1050 for a 22" & 1920x1200 for a 26" ? i heared that using native res was always giving best results than a different one; the computer doesnt have to switch between settings from "usual" res to the games one(the one u use on yer dekstop and the games one...it often bug between res when u jump in windows with alt enter for example)



Yeah, some other people already told me that I would get a loss of performance when using a lower resolution than the native one. The point is that the monitor will have to do some kind of interleaving, and therefore theoretically the reaction time of the LCD will rise.
It's not the graphics card or the CPU which has to do this, it's the monitor. I think for high quality LCD monitors this shouldn't be a big problem. I have one of the few 2 ms 26'' monitors, and right now I didn't notice a difference in reaction time.

Fact is, that I notice a small fps difference between 1680 and 1920 res.
For UT3 for example this is only noticable if the max fps in 1680 res already is <= 62.
UT3 max fps is cut at 62 by the MaxSmoothedFrameRate setting, so you won't notice the difference in many maps at all. But those maps which for example have 57 fps in 1680 res, will (on my system) only have about 53-54 fps with 1920 res.
This normally is no big difference, but here you might get the problem with the refreshrate thing I wrote above: The difference between the 60 Hz refreshrate of the LCD screen and the game fps now is too big, so that some stuttering will appear.
This is the second reason why I only use the 1680x1050 res on my 1920x1200 screen...

I think it depends on the monitor how noticable the stuttering is.
The stuttering in such a case even is much more noticable if someone is using Vsync: If the difference between fps and refresh rate is too big, than the real fps drop down to less than the half (<= 30), although the game shows for example 50 fps. I have read about this in any forum where they explained this annoying issue, but.... sorry I have not complete understood this issue...evileye But I have tested it, and I must say it is true! This was the reason why I have disabled the default Vsync setting in Bioshock. I have much less stuttering since then! You should only use Vsync, if the game will never fall below this value...aww





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Bl!tz


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thx for explications mate...really interressant
...another thing i have read : "the human eyes speed limit is 5ms" so it cant see any improovement from 5ms to 2 ms....and personnaly i have to agree and i cant see the difference( i cant balance it:p)
what is ur opinion on that?

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rulaman


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Well..., I only had 2 ms LCDs right now...  But when I changed from my 21'' CRT to the 22'' LCD 2 years ago, I noticed that while I was running in a Half-Life 2 map, some items left and right from me were blurred. The whole picture seemed to be blurred for me while I was moving fast. I had never noticed this on any CRT screen, and I needed a long time until I got used to this.
2 ms isn't really much right? 5 ms = 2,5*2...
I think we (Egoshooter players) will be able to see the difference.

The scientists also say that the human eye cannot notice more than 24 pictures/minute. LoL..., I don't want to play UT3 or HL2 with 24 fps, haha...

I think our brain can get much more information out of our senses, if it gets confronted with special situations again and again. Maybe some regions in our brain get a kind of restructuring, so that it can handle these situations better.
Lets call it "human brain interleaving" - lol...

-- Edited by rulaman on Sunday 20th of September 2009 08:44:13 PM

-- Edited by rulaman on Sunday 20th of September 2009 08:46:03 PM

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Bl!tz


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lol^^

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rulaman


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Again some words to this problem:
I found the tool "FPS Limiter" which helps to cut FPS of OGL/D3D8/D3D9 games:
http://www.planet3dnow.de/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=341850

Works great with Bioshock in XP, and also my old RavenShield works fine with it.

Because the readme in the download partly is in german, here a short instruction:

1. copy the fpslimiter_0_2 folder to a location you want.
2. create a shortcut to the FPS_Limiter.exe
3. edit the shortcut path something like this:

from:
"C:\Programme\FPS Limiter\FPS_Limiter.exe"
to -->
"C:\Programme\FPS Limiter\FPS_Limiter.exe"  /f:90 /r:D3D8 "E:\Games\Red Storm Entertainment\RavenShield\system\RavenShield.exe"

/f:90        = maxfps 90
/r:D3D8   = DirectX 8
/r:D3D9   = DirectX 9
/r:OGL     = OpenGL

DirectX 10/11 not supported !!!

In game you can use this keys for navigation:
F10 shows the current fps (top left of the screen)
F11 decrease fps
F12 rise fps

This should help in most cases to solve the "Micro stuttering" issue!




-- Edited by rulaman on Monday 5th of October 2009 03:22:17 PM

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Bl!tz


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thx for sharing & translation mate...i tryed to read the posts from the link but....lol....time killed my german......:p

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I wondered if any of you had tried D3DOverrider available with Riva  Tuner download.
Basically it allows you to enable vsync and triple buffering on nvidia cards for DirX games without a major loss in frame rate.
I have it running for UT3 and it seems to work.


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Bl!tz


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interressant; what kind of computers are the target of the tool? is it to "emulate" underpowered PCs? or it for all kind of pcs?

can u tell us a little bout ur specs ....just to have an idea ;)

thx for sharing m8

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TIPPER wrote:

I wondered if any of you had tried D3DOverrider available with Riva  Tuner download.
Basically it allows you to enable vsync and triple buffering on nvidia cards for DirX games without a major loss in frame rate.
I have it running for UT3 and it seems to work.


I use Riva Tuner for many years now, but I didn't notice any difference in enabling vsync by Riva Tuner or in the NVIDIA system control... Both give me a slight mouse lag, I can't play with that.

UT3 fps is limited by default to 62 by settings in the UTEngine.ini:
bSmoothFrameRate=True
...
MaxSmoothedFrameRate=62.000000

vsync will set the fps to the LCD monitor refresh rate, which is 60. So there will of course be not much fps loss if your machine is able to run UT3 with fps > ~55. If a PC can't render these fps, then vsync does not make any sense at all. disbelief

But in my opinion the setting of UT3 MaxSmoothedFrameRate=62 does a much better job than vsync... hmm

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Scythe


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If you have still problem with stuttering in UT2004, try to open UT2004.ini, find [D3D9Drv.D3D9RenderDevice] and write under it " DesiredRefreshRate=60 ".
With this one my problem was solved, because FPS never go under 60.

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UT2004 forever. The one and only game that has special place in my life.

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rulaman


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Scythe wrote:

If you have still problem with stuttering in UT2004, try to open UT2004.ini, find [D3D9Drv.D3D9RenderDevice] and write under it " DesiredRefreshRate=60 ".
With this one my problem was solved, because FPS never go under 60.



This is the default setting for UT2004, and should be included in every UT2004.ini anyway...
Also the problem was a complete different one, please read again all the posts above...
The next thing is, that on low performance machines the fps of course may drop under 60 fps in some maps, you cannot get a car run faster than its engine can provide, only by telling it to do so... headbang.gif



-- Edited by rulaman on Sunday 25th of July 2010 09:09:32 AM

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Scythe


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yes, on my notebook it is under 60 :( pity that there isn't any command to have more FPS without less details biggrin.gif

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